Hey everybody, What’s up? It’s Justin Live from B2B Vault, the payment technology podcast with your host, Allen Kopelman. And we’ll be providing you with educational information about business, payments, FinTech, decentralized finance and the technology businesses use in today’s world. And in today’s podcast, we’re going to be talking about high risk.
Excuse me, we’re going to be talking about merchants, small businesses, and chargebacks, and there are always different ways of fighting the chargeback and different crazy stories about the chargeback. Allen has a lot of interesting stories about that as well. I, myself, wasn’t very familiar with this process.
I didn’t know that this was even something that you could do. And like here you go. Yeah, you had a thing where you were trying to get your money back. It took forever, right? Oh my God! So yeah, I bought, I tried to buy my daughter a Nintendo switch online. It never came, my bank, it took over, it was in December,
I think it is over almost six months. It’s crazy, it shouldn’t take that long! But it was a debit purchase. It wasn’t a credit card. Yeah, debit takes a little bit longer than using your credit card. I’m just going to out and say it, PNC is a terrible bank. I’m just sorry. That’s okay. But I’m just saying when you do a chargeback from the consumer standpoint, debit and credit are two different products. Right!
So, it’s two different processes. On credit, it’s a little bit different because it’s credit or debit. You have to deal with your bank, and they don’t really deal with that many debit card chargebacks. It’s always better if you’re making an internet purchase to use an actual credit card, especially if you’re not familiar with the merchant, or the business, and that way you have a little bit more protection.
We’re going to talk today about chargebacks.
I always split the discussion up into two areas. One is the internet, and one is for a card present. Today, we’re going to dive into the card present, and start off with a little story. Before you get into it, what is card present mean? So, card present means where you’re doing a face-to-face business retail restaurant.
Wherever you’re dealing with the person face-to-face, the cards going in the machine, or somebody’s doing a tap and pay or paying with their apple wallet, it’s a face-to-face sale! Right. So, we’re talking about card present, and face-to-face sales, and it was supposed to be the end
to everything. So let me find this one, I’ve been helping like a few merchants with a bunch of chargebacks the last few days. I’m still working on a few now. And one of the ones I’m working on is this one for $2,200. And it’s the craziest and it’s a crazy chargeback and believe me, people will charge back any amount of money.
Of course, it’s going to be the last piece of paper, right? So here it is. So, this customer, literally they complained about everything they complained about. They claimed that they did not receive the goods and services and the goods and services were different than the written description, which makes no sense.
This is in a restaurant bar nightclub situation, and they dispute the quality of the merchandise, Asian of services, and merchandise. I don’t even know what that means. Merchandise. Mis- character oh, the quality and mischaracterization of services and merchandise. If you come with a that’s like a $10 word, I don’t even think you could make that in Scrabble,
It’s so long. Mischaracterization? Yeah, I missed that word. It’s a good word! Yeah, it’s a good word, but I’m just saying that’s like a huge word, that’s a $10 word. They want to supply. It’s a very legal term. Right. Supply a detail, the refute to these complaints along with any applicable supporting documents and the reason for the adjustment.
And then they also complained that one of their party was asked to leave the club. So, they wrote in about, they actually tried to do this chargeback about four times! Okay. And each time they added more and more onto the letter, oh. Someone was asked to leave the club. So, then we just had to write another letter, saying that we wrote another letter and sent it in, even though we sent it in detail. One of these is mine.
Oh, we wrote in detailed letters, all about what was, what went on with the transaction. So, the person also claimed, that they got a private room at the club, and they didn’t get a private room. So, we had to explain as you come to the club. We’d lit I had a right at.
We wrote a detail, two, a long letter that took two pages explaining you come to the club, you decide you want a private room, the hostess, or the manager shows you around the club and shows you which rooms are available. Then you’re going to pick the one that you want. So, the guy picked the one they wanted, and he got the private, usually, you pay money and you’re in there for an hour, two, whatever hours you get your bottle service and all that.
It’s all included. And then you pay, you, you get your room and then you make your payment. Loti da. Obviously, this guy didn’t want to pay, and he’s been fighting and fighting, going back and forth. Literally Justin probably, and Samantha listened for the last probably I think I was on the phone for over an hour.
That was just today. Yeah. And I was also on the phone with the chargeback department the other day for over an hour too, trying to get this cleared up for the client, so we work, on behalf of the clients. When they’re having, chargebacks, you can’t, merchants will say to me, oh, I want to stop people from doing a chargeback.
You can’t even have a piece of paper that says, I will not do a chargeback. Because it means nothing. Because what people have to understand is you have your merchant agreement and the cardholder as their cardholder agreement, which gives that right! Just to clarify really quick, like what exactly
is the definition of a chargeback? So, the definition is you made a purchase and now you don’t want to pay for it for whatever reason. Now you have what I call. This is just what I would say. It’s almost a scam! This is just outright fraud on behalf of the cardholder. Because, obviously it’s a club, so they take extra care.
If I’m sorry to cut you up, but if you, if say you find out that, obviously, there’s video footage, there’s obviously yeah. There are pictures. They took the guy’s driver’s license, the owner of that club, like press charges on that guy. Oh yeah, you could, in, in most states, you can press charges.
And I learned this because I used to be a chef so when I was a chef, one of the weird things you learned about is hospitality laws. People always refer to a dining dash. Yeah! Dine and dash someone eats in the restaurant, and they leave. So, I think everyone’s done that once in their life.
So basically, it’s in some states it’s a felony. No, it is, in Wisconsin, it is for sure. So, it’s called they don’t call it the dine dash felony, it’s called defraud of an Innkeeper. So, there are these Innkeeper laws that basically say that, oh, if you go in this place and you eat food and then you don’t pay, you can go to jail.
In fact, when I lived in Atlanta, I had a friend when I was a chef, who owned a restaurant downtown. It was in a really bad area. There were a lot of homeless people. He felt bad for them, and they would come into the restaurant, and they would order Chi. He sold chicken wings, sandwiches, and pizza.
That’s it. And it was near the university of Georgia tech. Okay. So obviously I know where a lot of people over there and so a lot of times homeless would come in, they would order a pizza, and they would eat the pizza. Then they’d say we have no money. And he knew they had no money. But you can’t just say you have no money.
Give me the money for the pizza. He knew what they wanted. And then he would call the cops. The cops would come, and it was freezing most of the time outside or super, super hot. And they wanted to go to jail. So, they would just take those homeless guys. And they would either take them to jail or some homeless shelter, because sometimes they couldn’t get into a homeless shelter.
Cuz the ones near them were filled. The sad part about the whole thing is that literally, the end story to most of those guys is they want to go to jail. Cause they got three hots and a cot; you know what I mean. So, if they want to go, they will take them most of the time to a homeless shelter because that’s not throwing them in.
They don’t really throw them in jail. What city is that? Yeah, Atlanta! They take them to it most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time. I don’t know if they’re doing that. I don’t know what goes on anymore. I don’t, but this is not a random thing, I, their outrage, but you can basically build an outlet for people.
If the merchant lost this transaction, they could actually, just call the cops and say, this guy file charges that the fraud was committed fraud and get charges filed against this person, which you. The person’s stupid for doing this because they probably don’t know that they could get charged with a felony!
Oh, for sure. So, they could get charged with a felony then they could get, they could also on top of that because it’s under five grand. They could go to a small claims court and take the person. They have the guy’s driver’s license. I mean it, to me, it’s just ridiculous, like you’re trying to say that you weren’t in, an establishment, and 99% of these places
have you on a closed caption camera? I don’t really understand like why you would try to, I mean it, so I’m sorry that you got caught going to the strip club, Johnny and your wife looked at your credit card statement. We don’t know if this is exactly a strip club it also happens at nightclubs! Right?
Where it’s just like a nightclub, you’re out partying with your friends. Oh, let’s get boy’s night out. And your wife left and found out you were at the club. You’re and now you’re trying to cover your tracks, right? And you’re getting the special couch with the bottles and all that stuff. Get outta here man. It is expensive!
And those places, those clubs, they get your driver’s license. Quick captain and pay your bills captain! So like here’s another case where the customers claim, that this guy bought a car or put a down payment on a car and claims to have not received or partially received
it’s good for services. I don’t understand, like you went to the car dealership, you put a down payment on the car using your credit card, and now you’re saying that you didn’t get it. Doesn’t make sense! This one’s in an ongoing fight. No, but there are all kinds of reasons. And then you’re as a merchant, you either need to get smart
on how you answer these, or you need to ask for help like from a guy like me. I help my clients! Like here’s another one someone has a reason does not recognize. So, they want to know, they just saying that they don’t even know if they were there or not. That’s ridiculous, bro.
And this one they should have been, they shouldn’t have sent a chargeback out for this, they should have sent a retrieval request. Just asking for a copy of the receipt and the paperwork. So, I don’t know why they sent that one out. And then here’s another one, fraud card-present environment, which means the customers claiming fraud, but it was a card present transaction.
This one they sent in all the information and the cardholder or issuing bank accepted liability for the dispute. So, it’s important that you respond to these, so you can get your money back. Get your money. Right! I’m just reading a bunch of these because it’s important, here’s one, somebody’s claiming the EMV liability chip, the merchant sent in the receipt that,
the receipt shows that it was processed using the chip and they won the chargeback. But it just shows you, that people don’t want to pay their bills. And it could be a result of the economy, and they’re trying to extend when they have to pay or not.
That’s part of it, but a lot of people are just dirty people. Here’s another one from a restaurant. This, these, I don’t understand because you go to a restaurant, and I actually write this in the chargeback letters for the merchant. This is a restaurant bar, when you go to a restaurant or a bar, you place your order, you are served and then you pay at the end. This is how every restaurant works in the world. Unless it’s fast food? Right! If it’s fast food, you order your food, you pay for it, and then they give it to you. But this is like a sit-down situation. It works like that. Do we have to explain that to the credit card company? That’s how it works in a restaurant, you would think that they go out to eat or they’ve been out to eat at least once or a thousand times, right?
Yeah, you would think! And we have to write that every single time, this is a restaurant. This is how it works. Here is this customer claiming non-res receipt of merchandise and services provide valid proof. How do you provide, why would you not, no, like they have to send in a copy of the receipt and they’re asking for an invoice or order form makes no sense this was a card-present transaction, and they can see that.
So, what would be the reasons why someone would do besides them just trying? They don’t want to pay their bill. Or they had a bad experience? They’re not complaining that the food was bad, or they got sick. I’ve seen some like that. I saw one where a guy wrote a whole thing saying he’s gluten-free and they must have given him some gluten because he got home, and he was sick.
Now that doesn’t make sense either. Like, how is the restaurant responsible? How do they know that while you were sitting at the table? I’m gluten-free and Justin orders pasta. And I decide that pasta looks pretty delicious, Justin, and I want to try a little bit of it, even though I know that could make me not feel so good later.
How do they know that didn’t happen? Or the guy saw the chocolate dessert on the table, he said that looks really good. That looks delicious! I’m going to try one little, small spoonful. Hey, before you go back into all that more of those wonderful chargeback stories from, H E double hockey sticks be sure to answer the contest, man.
Today’s your last day to enter, for your chance to win a Meta quest 2. Posted on all of our social media! Yes, the link is posted everywhere. So, this is your last chance at B2B Vault to enter, to win Met quest 2 a hundred dollars gas card, and a $50 Amazon gift card. Not you don’t get all three. No, you those are first, second and third place, right weirdos.
Anyway. Yeah. So be sure to follow B2B Vault on Instagram, Facebook TikTok, and LinkedIn. Yeah, Twitter! And Twitter, we’ll tweet you! Don’t forget to follow us in to join the contest, please. Today’s your last chance. Yeah, there’s like about almost a thousand people in yeah. There are a thousand people.
Yeah. Over a thousand now. Yeah, I believe so. Awesome. That’s great. Your chances are getting thinner and thinner. Yeah. There’s one guy who he keeps commenting. I hope I win; I hope I win! Yeah, I have seen that on Twitter. See, one person has so many entries I’m I don’t even know how they did that. I might have to go to see if they did some untrustworthy things there.
Huh? That’s weird. I thought it was limited, but we’ll see. No. Okay. Yeah. There’s but you keep sharing and sharing. So, I don’t know. I guess if you keep sharing it, you get another entry. My entries haven’t been going up, I’ve been trying to figure this out. So, without worrying, that guy’s a contest professional there are people that I had to remove from the contest whose emails were,
contestwinnergmail.com. Okay. Yeah. Also, if you don’t, if you don’t verify your email, you’re not entered the contest. Yep. There’s way more than a thousand, but oh, there’s, I think there was a total of 3000 entries, but people don’t verify, so they don’t, they’re not entering.
Here’s another one, incorrect amount billed, supply sales ticket to show. So, the guy says the transactions 140 and he thought he was only paying 120. The merchant sends in the receipt, it’s all covered. Here’s another one at a restaurant. They complain about non-receipt of merchandise. They. Valid proof that they received it.
What do they need a video of the guy eating the burgers? I don’t understand. It’s getting a little crazy, and they ask all kinds of questions to the person was what was not received. The guy says the merchandise. And then what was the description? No, the merchandise was not received.
Why would you, if you went to a restaurant, why wouldn’t you pay your bill? If you paid, why would you pay if you didn’t get their food? It just makes no sense to me! So that’s what the person is claiming and that, so it just causes time. The merchant just has to spend a lot of time doing all this, and if you don’t do it, then you’re not going to win and get your money. During that time.
So obviously that, say I go to Allen’s steak shake, shop, whatever. I order a T-bone I get a Filet Mignon. Right! I’m unhappy, I go home, I charge back. Yeah, but why wouldn’t you complain at the restaurant? It’s busy! Doesn’t make a lot of sense? No, no, I’m just saying if you’re going to complain, complain at the restaurant.
I used to not be that person. My wife finally. No, but I’m just saying if I got the wrong food, I was going to once I went to a restaurant and they served us, I, they put the food down and then I stopped the server and I go, this is not what we ordered, and then they were like flipped out about it, so they took it back. Obviously, he didn’t eat it or anything, but the girl put it down so fast. And then when we looked at the food on, that’s not our, that’s not our foods. And obviously, whoever it belonged to, they’re not going to want it after it’s been put in front of somebody else. Especially now with the situation, COVID. Right! So no, that I don’t, I just think I’m rocking my COVID. I just think that, as I saw, if he’s in MasterCard made some changes, with in regard to internet merchants, but it doesn’t go into effect until next year. So, people have a whole, it doesn’t go into effect until 2023, which is wrong if you just put it into effect now.
And that rule is interesting, but we’ll talk about that, like another time, because it’s not going to help anybody now. And then they want to know, like, why didn’t get. Why would you pay for your food if you didn’t get your food? And there’s a bunch of these, and it’s all coming from a bunch of these all came from like one restaurant.
The guy fighting the $2,200. I actually wrote, we probably wrote about five letters. Sent up all over to the chargeback department, addressed every single claim that the guy made in the. In his letter, the guy made about eight different claims. I always question when I meet people from the card brand, people that work at Visa and MasterCard, I’d say, I don’t understand, like 2015, you guys went crazy, right?
They have this EMV liability chip. So let me explain what that is let’s say, Justin, you come into my, you present me with your credit card. I don’t have an EMV machine. So, I take the card and I swipe it using the Mag Stripe. Why these cards still have mag stripes on them is also beyond
my comprehension! 2015 is already seven years ago! Yep. Okay. So, I would think at, in seven years they ran out of these mag stripes. Not unless some guy Mr. Mag stripe just has some patent, and it says every credit card you print has to have this thing on it. But I would think you, just get rid of it. Never know!
No, I’m just saying who knows, right? Yeah. So, you swipe the card. The bank can just say, oh, we see that’s a swipe. It’s not an EMV, we want to charge it! And the bank can do it without even asking the customer. But I’ve been into many like doctor’s offices, and dentist offices. I’m trying to think what other businesses, mostly it’s medical and they haven’t upgraded any of their stuff where they’ve taken EMV.
They’re swiping the card. And one time the dentist got mad at me, and they go, oh, we got to chargeback. I don’t know anything about it. And the funny thing was I went and checked my bill, it was still on my bill! So, I called the credit card company, and I got a copy of the chargeback letter, and I sent it to them.
I go, I don’t know, understand like why you guys are doing this. If you took it if you charged it back and they have no because they have no rights because of the EMV chip. So, if they don’t have a slip that shows a chip on it, or EMV. They automatically lose. It’s Automatic. So, I go if they lost, why didn’t you take it off my bill?
They didn’t have an answer for that. So, I said you need to fix it and send them back that money because I’m not paying them again. Because look, it’s my bill, it’s not off my bill, I didn’t get credit! So I find that to be a little bit weird. It’s a little deceiving. Yeah. It’s deceiving because as a cardholder, you wouldn’t know about it. But that goes for banks and everything,
you just got to pay attention. Yeah, exactly! Like I see a lot, I saw another article recently discussing a little shift from people using their debit cards. That people are using their credit cards more. And I went and looked, and I saw there was like a slight little there, there wasn’t really a big difference in that maybe that could be geographical too.
Like some geographical areas. Because I think like in some states where things were closed longer, there, the economy is not as strong as in other places. So, like in Florida where things were open a lot quicker. The economy’s stronger. Although I drove down, a major street the other day near my house in Coral Springs.
And I was shocked. I was driving through. Excuse me. Driving down the street to go run an errand. I was actually shocked! There was like a lot of, I saw quite a few businesses, went out of business. That I thought were good strong businesses, but you never know their lease could have gone up sales weren’t maybe so good for a while.
And we just did a podcast about Omni commerce. And we’re going to do some other podcasts about that because I think Omnicom, Omnichannel. The Omnichannel style of having a merchant account is the future for businesses and they need to have this Omnichannel because they need to have a way for customers to pay them the way customers want to pay.
They even saw a story about grocery stores, and how that, how they’re evolving, to keep up, and then Instacart business is down. More people are going to the store, but they’re, maybe they’re not going to the store. More stores started offering that kind of service where you can just pick it up curbside.
Although I’m the kind of person I like to go get my food because I used to be a chef. So, I want to look at the food, and touch the food. Yeah, exactly. See what looks good. What doesn’t look good? See what’s hot! Yeah, if you’re buying something cooked, but I’m just saying in general. Chargebacks, it’s very difficult for small businesses to deal with.
I wish that the card issuing banks would be a little bit, “I don’t know how to phrase it” I think that the card issuing banks, they can see that the person, the EMV chip was used. And I think that they should just ask for the receipt and not do a chargeback. They should do a retrieval request. So, if you’re listening from the credit card, the people who make that decision, which are Visa and MasterCard and the card issuing banks, you listen to the podcast, listen, you can come on and discuss it with me. I’ve asked a bunch of people to come on the podcast. I never really come, Dick Durban and anybody else on his committee want to discuss credit card processing.
Love to discuss it with you! Any senators from Florida, Marco Rubio, Rick Scott, you can come on the podcast, Visa, MasterCard, chargeback people, Amex chargeback department, come on, let’s discuss it. They need to be a lot fairer, or I guess that’s the word or diplomatic, I think with the merchant. If you see that it’s EMV, they should just say, hey, we want a copy of the receipt
and that’s it! And not all this whole mess of stories. Oh, I didn’t get my food. They can clearly see it from the name of the place that it’s a restaurant. Okay. It’s not confusing, Allen’s bar and grill. Okay. We know what that is, 2929 restaurant. You know what that is, right?
If it has a weird name, put it in Google, they have a minute to Google it up. You can just highlight it and google it or type it in real fast. But I think that they need to be a lot more diplomatic, fairer. I don’t know what other word we could use. I think they just need to be more thorough.
No, but I think they need to treat merchants a little fairer. They need fair treatment. Cause I understand they’re for the cardholder, right? When I want to do a charge bank, I want my bank to be on my side. True. But I think on these card present ones, which is what we’re talking about today and we’ll do another podcast on card not present transactions because it’s different.
And there are tons of companies that can help you. If you’re a high-volume merchant with a non-card presence, there are companies that help you fight the chargebacks. With this, with cards present, there are no companies that help. I’m probably the only one I call my program, Chargeback rescue! That’s what we call it
Chargeback rescue program. You have chargebacks, you need help, we help you, card present. Card not present, we can refer you to companies who deal in that area. And I also think that, if there’s some, there’s should be some other I always go back to. Two-factor authentication or other types of authentications.
I think that the credit card companies need to stop talking about that and just put something implement. Something, whatever it is. Cause they ask you all the time. Like when you log in, you probably get asked if you log into your bank on your phone or your log into your bank, on your computer.
It doesn’t ask me on my phone anymore because it’s like, they know it’s your mobile. I’m saying always say. If you log into it on your device like your desktop is going to send you a push notification to your phone, right? That’s two-factor authentication, or sometimes they say, Ooh, is this a trusted device?
Exactly. You have to click. Yes. So, I think that they need to, I think they need to be more connected to identifying people at the point of purchase for every single purchase and just send people a text and they have to click. Boom. It can happen. It happens in like nanosecond. It does.
When you’re buying something and you’re using Shopify, they just send you a code and there are other websites that do the same thing. And I think there needs to be more of that and needs to be more accepted by the credit card companies as a form of identifying the cardholder. If you have problems with chargebacks in a card-present environment, you need some coaching.
We can give you a little coaching, want to hire us? You can hire us. If you’re a merchant, we provide the service to you at either no cost or a nominal fee. And you can find out more on our website, or you can text the word “book” to 9 5 4 8 2 7 9 8 1 8 and get a link back and book an appointment. So, enter the contest, and be ready for Thursday at 3:00 PM.
Catch us on LinkedIn, Facebook YouTube. We’re going to be there. The live 100th episode of B2B Vault. All right. I can’t believe we made it to a hundred episodes. The first few were horrible, but we’re, we’ve been on the roll and yeah, we’re on a roll, right? So don’t forget the hundredth episode. We’ll be looking for you and send us some questions to be read.
There are some surprise giveaways. Peace out Carpe Diem!